Question re: ethanol blend

lltoms

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone had some insight/recommendations on my situation. I run a gas station, and I am definitely asking my local equipment servicer tomorrow, but I always like to hear a variety of insights if possible since more knowledge is usually better



I was just told by my fuel supplier that the government is making ethanol blended gasoline mandatory. My understanding is that there must be no water in the tanks, zero tolerance. I believe this just requires the tanks to be pumped prior to the delivery, and regular maintenance/watching thereafter? As far as I know, my tanks are single fiberglass and I do have a monitoring system if that makes any difference?

The issue that worries me though, is that my pumps are Tokheims, and still only use the suction screens. We have asked many times for years about a filter add-on since the screens are such a pain to change, but my understanding is that this model was not equipped to handle one and was not really necessary. The last tech I chatted with, maybe several months ago during a normal service call told me though, that adding a filter system was possible, but costly. I believe I have either the premier b or c? Are these pumps capable of dispensing ethanol blended fuel as is with only the screen, or do they need a special filter upgrade?

The notice I was given only vaguely mentions that a 10micron filter is needed to filter out particulates, and water absorbing filters are not recommended which confuses me because I thought the whole point of the filter was to prevent possible water? Doesn't the suction screen I have already filter particulate, or is a special one needed for some special reason?

I also wonder, will the monitoring system not detect water at the bottom of the tank anymore making it useless for that purpose? Does the ethanol mix with the water if it is present instead of sinking down? Is this the cause of the ethanol issue? Any information on ethanol and tanks/dispensing would be greatly appreciated if not too much trouble! If this is not appropriate to ask here, then my apologies.

Punchak

Pineneedles, You have asked some good questions.  You may have already tried the forum search feature, which will give you lot of discussion on ethanol and changing over to ethanol.  (At the upper right of the screen, under Petroleum Equipment Forum, click on "Search" and set it to search the Service Forum for "ethanol" first.)

Everything you ask about is not covered there, though. I don't think you will find anything there about filters for suction pumps.  The same question has come up recently at my office involving pumps from a different manufacturer. It will be interesting to see what folks have to say.  

Mike

bobbydavro

The water causes the ethanol to separate and the alcohol sinks to the bottom, causing it to dispense straight ethanol into a vehicle. That is bad for engines! That is the ethanol problem. They have special filters called alcohol or biotech filters that prevent straight alcohol from being dispensed.

As for adapting your dispenser, that's not my specialty... better let someone else answer that.

ZeRtEr

Most if not all Tokheim equipment is ethanol ready to any percentage. Depending on the type of dispenser it is allways possable and best to install some type of spin on filter up or down stream of the dispenser meter. If cost is an issue it just may not look all that pretty.

Knowing the tank has NO resident water and NO attached sodium salts is important in preventing future and present ethanol phase fuel problems. Post ethanol introduction seasonally correct in line product and dispenser filters are important as well.

Depending on the brand of fuel all brands have writen protocol for preparing tanks. Unbranded the protocol is called "common sense" or proper tank top maintenance. Regardless of where you might regionally be, case by case, Exxon or Abdul, there are always places where you can fine help and advice.

You are wise to seak advise....If your situation is critical to delivering quality blended ethanol fuel to your customer call or have your Jobber call us and we will advise (much if not all of it free) on all known options for your equipment. Do not wait untill your local news paper reports bad fuel or customers begin complaining about fuel quality and how much it is going to cost to fix their car after fueling at your site.

Good luck and happy fueling,


[url=mailto:zmiller@orvr.us]zmiller@orvr.us[/url]


Atlanta

indiamike

Thanks for the info guys! Yesterday was a busy day, but I did go in early and talked to my local tech company. ZMiller, you are very accurate in your advice! Basically it's preferable on my pumps to install the filters inside, but it all depends on whether there is enough space (also more costly). It's also possible to put filter outside, but it would look ugly, and might be an access point for mischief if seen. I haven't heard back yet, and they actually need to spec out my pumps in person, but I was told they would also be checking with another guy who had more experience with my pump (he wasn't in at the time). I suspect they also need to find out more about cleaning out my tanks (which was specified by my fuel supplier).

I wonder why this change was not announced more officially as it seems it could cause a lot of problems? The tech company I deal with were even totally unaware about this, and I think they totally doubt me, lol! However, I double checked with my fuel supplier rep, and was told it's definitely a provincial government thing (Canada). I just hope I can get servicing soon as they always seem to be quite busy.

On another note, perhaps someone can explain this to me? As I mentioned previously, I only have the suction screens. but in perhaps the last "1.5years, I have found the screens to be clogging up quite frequently. Actually, just yesterday, I had to change out one screen within a week. I had a nozzle overflow, and was told if the gas flows too slowly, it won't trigger the stop, therefore check the screen. Prior to that, we rarely had to change the screens. My question is, when I look at the screen, it actually has what seems to be tiny-small chunks of what looks like rust? How do I have this? When a had techs change it, they didn't seem worried, and was told it's normal. Now I change it myself because it's hard to get them in for such a small job, and it's costly for a simple change. My tanks are fiberglass, so is this really normal? I wonder if this can come from the delivery trucks, especially with ethanol becoming more prevalent (ie. is it possible for the trucks to switch loads from ethanol to regular, so some ethanol residue could be delivered to me causing this?) Or perhaps someone dropped a tool down my tank??? lol Or can this type of debris come from within the motor itself? It makes me wonder because I thought the bottom of the tank was sludgy. Is this really normal?

Thanks for any more advice!